Equipping Over 400K Business Leaders for Marketplace Ministry (w/ Rick Boxx)

On this episode, we’re joined by Rick Boxx.  

Rick Boxx is the CEO and Founder of Unconventional Business Network. UBN is a nonprofit founded in 2001 that has equipped over 400,000 business leaders in integrating their faith and the Bible with their work.  

Rick has a daily radio and email broadcast called “Integrity Moments” that reaches over 2 million leaders and is featured on over 200 radio stations. He’s authored seven books, including Unconventional Business. Rick is a former CPA, banker, and multiple time entrepreneur. He resides in Overland Park, Kansas with his lovely and lively wife, Kathy. They have three children and four grandchildren who live in the area. 

https://unconventionalbusiness.org/

Christian Business Leader is the podcast for marketplace Christians seeking to explore and apply God’s will for business for the purpose of cultivating Christ-Centered Companies.

Full Episode Transcript

Heads up: This transcript was created with AI, so you might notice a few typos or small mistakes. We recommend listening to the episode for the best experience!  

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast, where Christ-following business leaders explore God’s will and ways for business. This show is a ministry of the Center for Christianity and Business at Houston Christian University and features conversations with today’s Christ-centered business leaders who are representing Christ faithfully in the business world. I’m your host, Darren Scheer, and if you want to make your work, leadership, and company’s culture more Christ-centered, you’ve come to the right place. On this episode, we’re joined by Rick Box. Rick is the CEO and founder of Unconventional Business Network. UBN is a nonprofit founded in 2001 that has equipped over 400,000 business leaders in integrating their faith and the Bible and their work. Rick has a daily radio and email broadcast called Integrity Moments that reaches over 2 million leaders and is featured on over 200 radio stations. He’s authored seven books, including unconventional business. He’s a former CPA banker and multiple-time entrepreneur, resides in Overland Park, Kansas, with his lovely and lively wife, Kathy. They have three children and four grandchildren who live in the area. And uh and they are a force in that Kansas City area in equipping God’s people for ministry in the marketplace. Rick, welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast.SPEAKER_00 1:30

Well, thank you, Darren. It’s great to be with you.SPEAKER_02 1:33

Yeah, it was great to connect with you, reconnect with you after many years. I think we met uh almost 10 years to the day there at the Faith at Works Summit in Dallas, and then once again at another event in DC a couple weeks ago. So I’m excited to have this conversation with you. Rick, when did you first realize God wants to be involved in your work and business?SPEAKER_01 1:56

You know, for me, it was whenever I was a uh banker. And I had, even though I’d been raised in the church, Darren, as a teenager, I kind of went the wild side and just really was hiding out from God. And there came a point in my career when a uh a large holding company had a troubled bank, and they asked if I would be willing to come on and be the chief lending officer and try and turn around this troubled bank. Well, at the same time, they hired in a new bank president. And when I began working for him, he was different than anybody I’d ever worked for before. Because when I would go in and try and get decisions out of him, he would oftentimes quote me a proverb or tell me a parable and how I could apply it to my problem. And I remember, you know, at that stage of my life walking out, just shaking my head, going, Did that guy really just pull a Bible out on me? You know, can he do that? But, you know, I would be obedient and go do what he would recommend. And I started watching as it worked. And we ended up uh really because of his servant leadership and his principle-driven approach to business. Our bosses told us that this bank was such a mess that it was at least a three-year journey to turn it around to profitability. Well, we did it in a year and a half, and I really credit that to my boss’s uh approach to business. And so God really used that to start to just get my attention. And I’m pretty stubborn, so I ended up eight or nine months later, I still wasn’t quite ready to release control of my life over uh to the Lord. And uh I ended up getting caught in a riptide in Hawaii that uh was a dramatic experience that pulled me a mile offshore and stripped me of my boogie board and had cramps in my legs. And I really had written myself off that there is no way I can survive this. And so the first time in 20 years, I began praying and really just laid it all out there for the Lord and repented and begged him to help my daughter who was on the shore, who was going to raise my daughter and who’s gonna help my wife. And God miraculously sent wave after wave after wave that drove me somersaulting through the ocean until I finally got close enough that I could see the shore off in the distance, saw a couple of young boys on a surfboard about a hundred yards from me. I shouted for them and then I was done. I just slumped in the ocean. And fortunately, they got to me quickly and fished me out and put me on their surfboard, paddled me to the beach, and these two boys just dumped me on the beach and left. And when my wife finally found me sprawled out on the beach, the first thing I told her was when we get back to Kansas City, we’re gonna find a church and we’re gonna get right with God. And that put me on a whole journey.SPEAKER_02 4:56

Then we’re gonna go to Nineveh and and preach to the Nineveh.SPEAKER_01 5:00

That’s right. So I ended up going back to that bank president, you know, basically saying, you know, okay, I have ears to hear now. What else does this book teach about business? Because that’s always been my passion. And uh I went on a journey from there of just trying to find are there any ministries out there uh teaching these biblical principles that were working so well for us? And uh that put me on a whole new path in my career eventually, and ended up feeling called to be in this space of uh trying to help train and equip business leaders.SPEAKER_02 5:34

Wow. So your boss, do you remember any particular uh proverbs or situations where he applied those proverbs that stood out to you?SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, I mean, I know there, you know, there was a lot of servant leadership type things. Probably one of the more profound ones that I remember is uh uh we so the two of us were sent into really a hostile work environment because the person that had created the mess was still there. They refused to fire him because he was too well known in the community. And so instead they really demeaned him and demoted him, and even though they they they made him chairman of the advisory board, but here this had been the guy that’d been CEO for years. And and so everybody w thought that they were supposed to still be you know listening to him, and we’re trying to turn the bank around in that kind of an environment. And so we needed something to change. And one day I went into the office and uh the bank, the new bank president’s name was Greg, and Greg lined all the employees up and he said, I want all of you to know that tomorrow I want you all to park your cars around back because I’m gonna spend the day washing the cars of all the employees. Well, I immediately made a beeline to him and I said, This is a bad idea. You’re the CEO, they should be washing your car. And that was just my mindset in my life at that time. And he just smiled and said, You know, Rick, have you ever read the story about Jesus washing the feet of the disciples? I’m like, Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar with that. But that that doesn’t apply here, you know. This is a crazy idea. You shouldn’t be doing this. You need to really lay the hammer down on these people. And he just smiled at me and said, Rick, I know what I’m doing, just leave it be. And I tell you what, that next day, I could look around the people and they started having a different look at us. And they started saying things like, Well, maybe I need to help out around here a little more. I mean, it seems like Greg really does care about us. And it was just that servant’s heart and that shepherding mindset that I began to watch as it started to turn the tide and people began to actually humbly follow us rather than the former guy. And so it’s just a very profound moment. Wow.SPEAKER_02 8:09

So, how much longer did you work uh in that in that bank after your Hawaii experience, or was the Hawaii experience after that?SPEAKER_01 8:18

No, I was yeah, I was still there at the bank at that time. Uh, I was only there at that particular bank for about a year and a half to two years because it was such a grueling place. I mean, I literally was getting death threats, and we were having to foreclose on all the major businesses in that small town and and all of that. And so my bosses eventually came to me at the higher ups than Greg even, and they came to me and said, we know how hard this has been, and you’ve done an amazing job of cleaning this up. And so we’re gonna promote you and send you to one of our bigger banks, and that you’re gonna be over all the commercial lending for a much bigger bank. And so it, you know, it led to a new opportunity for me within the the organization.SPEAKER_02 9:04

Gotcha. And so the the Hawaii experience that led to you stepping away from the bank and from that type of uh um CPA work that you were doing to start unconventional business network?SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, much later. Um, you know, so there was kind of a transition, you know, I bounced through that system uh, you know, with some promotions and different responsibilities, uh, because it was a really large bank. Uh, and so there was a lot of opportunities. Uh, but then I had some family friends that had inherited a small community bank, and they kept asking me to come run that for them. And it was one of those things where I kept asking, well, now, why would I do that? I mean, I’ve got a lot of opportunities, a big bank and all that sort of thing. But every time I prayed about it at that stage, God made it clear that, yeah, you need to go do this. And I was just dragging my feet until one day the uh the brother that uh there was a brother and sister, oh, I’m sorry, there was a brother and sister uh that they were the ones courting me to kind of come. And what ended up happening was is they called me one day and said, Rick, dad went home last night and killed our mother and then committed suicide. And after a couple of weeks, they called and said, you know, Rick, you you don’t have any choice. You gotta come help us. We’re drowning over here, you know, and so I I did. And we did that for a while, and then it finally became evident that um the two of them really at that time kind of hated each other because of their jealousy over the bank. And so I convinced them that they really needed to sell the bank in order to gain some peace in the family. And so we ended up selling it to a major holding company. So it was during that transition that as I prayed about what God would have me do next, God made it clear that you keep asking why aren’t there any ministries teaching this stuff? That’s what I need you to go do. And so that’s when I took the plunge and jumped out and started.SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah, yeah. What’s one of your favorite stories that illustrates the impact that’s been made through the unconventional business network?SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. You know, I think uh one of my favorites is uh very early on in the uh ministry, we hosted an event and we had the uh at the time the director of training for Chick-fil-A came and spoke. And we had a uh two or three tables worth of people that were from a somewhat significant uh lawn and landscaping business here in town. And the very next day the CEO calls me and he said, you know, Rick, we’re much smaller and fleeter afoot than somebody as large as Chick fil A. But yet they talk about their mission being to glorify God, and they’re actually trying to do that. Why can’t we do something like that? And I said, Well, there’s no reason why you can’t. And he said, Well, then you need to get in your car and drive over here because I need some help in figuring this out. Because he said, I’m all in. And so we ended up talking through what that might look like for their company, and what it led them to do was he actually crafted a new mission statement and core values for their company that was very specific that they wanted to glorify God through the way that they created landscapes and beauty on their customers’ property. And uh that led to them being bold with how they were going to do things. They began training their team of people on their principles and values and how they wanted to conduct business going forward. And I’ve watched over the years as that business grew and flourished dramatically, and they have been just a bold force of faith in our community. And it was just amazing to be able to kind of help along the way. And so they’ve been a sponsor, so they invite lots of first-time attendees to our events over the years, uh, so that people kind of get a new feel and perspective on how uh business might be done. And so they’ve helped, you know, drive a lot of new people as well, you know, to just what we’re doing that ripples through and has impacted a lot of other businesses that have said, well, if they’re doing that, why can’t we do that?unknown 13:51

Yeah.SPEAKER_01 13:51

So it’s just been pretty interesting to watch what God’s done with that over the years.SPEAKER_02 13:56

I love that. I love that. And it started with your boss setting that example, and and you said, Well, if he can do that, I can do that. And then and then now this company is is hearing from Chick-fil-A, if they can do that, I can do that. The biblical term for that would be disciple making. And and that’s what’s happening, and that’s why we have to set that that example for business people, because the pastors, generally speaking, haven’t seen that example in the work in a workplace setting. Um, it’s it’s a more familiar to stand behind a pulpit and and preach the gospel and teach the Bible. Much less familiar to do that in in the context of everyday mundane work, and and sometimes not mundane, very, very spectacular conflict that emerges and and and what and what is what is the Holy Spirit saying about that? What is God’s word saying about that? Um are there what would be some other kind of non-obvious best practices that you’ve seen for faith integration that really characterizes and differentiates companies that have bought into what you teach through unconventional business?SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, you know, I would say for a lot of companies, kind of a good starting place is just their their core values. I mean, a lot of businesses naturally feel um that maybe they need to be more faith-friendly than faith forward. And so it can get scary that, you know, hey, I got a bunch of people that work for me and they’re not followers, and you know, I really want to be a you know a witness and a light to them, you know, but I uh but how do I do it without feeling like I’m beating them over the head with the Bible? And so, you know, the core values is a great way for people to start with that because most core values came right out of scripture. And so we’ve seen a lot of companies that we’ve helped over the years that, you know, they just shape, okay, what is it that uh we want to be about, and what are the values that we want modeled within our organization? And so then that usually also gives them the platform to be able to speak about their faith and why they do things the way that they do. And so just laying some of that foundation, which, you know, to some that’s been doing it for a while seems, you know, uh simple, but for a lot of people that have been maybe compartmentalizing their life for years and they’ve gone to church, but they’ve never really connected the dots on Monday, you know, for those people that can be a profound first step for their business that really can kind of start moving the ball forward.SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s you’re you’re right. And for many companies, one of those core values might be integrity. And that just stirs up uh or it could stir up a great conversation about why why do you want to have integrity? Like, what is it that is there somebody you don’t want to let down? Like, uh, what is that for you? Well, well, for me, maybe it’s uh I don’t want to let my my mom down, my dad down. I don’t want my wife to be disappointed, I don’t want my kids to be disappointed in me. And and I mean to have ultimately for the believers in the room to say, well, you know, for me, um, I I certainly don’t want to let my family down, but but fundamentally I don’t want to let God down. Um, and and because you know, my life is built on that on that foundation of of Christ. And so um just stir up a really yeah, Darren.SPEAKER_01 17:53

I’ve I’ve often told people that you know, almost every business owner I’ve ever met, they really do want an ethical workplace. And I’ve contended, well, if people’s ethics primarily have been shaped by their faith, even if it’s a child-like faith that they went away from, why would you tell them to check that at the door and expect you’re going to get an ethical workplace? I mean, it’s just never made any sense.SPEAKER_02 18:21

No, it doesn’t. Not at all. So, Rick, you you have uh been around the faith and work movement for decades. Uh you’ve you’ve seen a lot of uh a lot of the trends kind of come and go and and some still still kind of coming. Um what are some of the trends that you’re seeing right now in the faith and work movement and how it’s kind of evolved over the last, you know, since you’ve been in it?SPEAKER_01 18:48

You know, I I would say there’s a couple that uh are really exciting to me. And one is is the in the church. Uh you know, I would say 10 years ago, if you asked any of us in this space what the biggest hurdle has been, it would be the church. Uh, because most pastors came out of seminary, they go into being a pastor, they don’t really grasp what it feels like to be in the marketplace and the challenges that they’re faced with. And so many, many people in the church have uh, many pastors have just not ever embraced the concept of trying to equip the saints for the work they’re doing Monday through Friday. Uh but what I’ve seen here in the last several years, probably the last four to five years, is there seems to be a lot more openness now by pastors of realizing this is an important topic and that there is a way that maybe they need to be looking into serving the business leaders in their community so that they can help encourage them and equip them. And so for us, I mean, one of the products that we have is what we call our forum groups, and it’s real high-quality video training content that’s a monthly meeting, and it’s usually a smaller group of anywhere from eight to twenty business leaders will gather each month, and we’ve created content that really helps them. Well, we uh we had somebody that called us one day and said, Hey Rick, my pastor wants me to start a business ministry in the church, but I don’t have any content. Do you have any recommendations? And at that point, we had only used it at kind of a community level. And I said, Well, you know, it’s scalable material. Why don’t you try it and tell me how it works? And so he started it in his church, and a few months later he called and he said, Well, the denomination liked what I was doing so much, they’ve asked if I would roll it out denomination-wide. And so he began starting groups in several, I mean, in Alabama and Tennessee, and Oklahoma and Canada and you know, different cities. And so that kind of gave us pause, and we’re like, well, maybe we finally have a tool that we can serve the local church. And so we went to probably the second largest church in Kansas City and started one of our forum groups there, and then one of the other mega churches in Kansas City started one, and so now we’re we’re seeing more and more churches that are stepping up saying, yeah, we’d like to do that. And so we’re actually uh hosting a pastor’s luncheon uh here in a couple of weeks locally uh to tell the local pastors more about what this might look like because what it ends up doing is you know, business leaders they don’t care about the four walls of the church like the pastor does. So they invite their friends. And so I know I lead one at the you know at the church that I’ve been at, and uh it’s been interesting that you know, uh on Easter Sunday. Uh last year, they had a um spontaneous baptism at church. And one of our group members went forward and got baptized, and the pastor knew his story. And the pastor ended up after baptizing him, shared with the whole congregation. This guy came to our church because of Unconventional Businesses Forum group. And then he brought his family, and now he and his family are getting baptized. And it all started because he was a business guy that was looking for help.SPEAKER_02 22:33

So that is so awesome. Yeah, I mean, and and it it doesn’t even necessarily have to go through the upper echelons of the of the church. I mean, marketplace Christians listening to this, chances are a couple times a year your church rolls out community groups or light groups, growth groups, you know, whatever they they happen to call them. And there is no reason why you couldn’t take, you know, the unconventional business content or you know, faith-driven entrepreneur content. There’s there’s so many. I’ve I’ve got a course as well in the Christ Center Company, and and use that or find a book, any kind of a faith and work book that’s solid, and use that as a book discussion for the group. Uh, and and make put that on the the directory of the small groups that are offered through your church. And I mean, we’ve I’ve done that at every church I’ve been at in the last probably you know 15, 15 years. There has been a marketplace group of of some sort, and pastors, they’re all about it. I mean, they might not get it, uh, but don’t wait for your pastor to get it before you that’s right, step forward and bring because you get it. And and that’s why the that’s why it’s a body and not just uh, you know, the the the person at the front of the the room behind the pulpit that has all the answers. I mean, you have answers for your fellow believers in the marketplace.SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, one thing I’ve uh learned over the years is we used to actually host a uh pastor business for a meeting, like we’d have a breakfast meeting, and I would ask a pastor to invite their key business leaders to breakfast, and I would tell them, you’re buying breakfast for a change, and uh you’re gonna sit up, sit back, and listen to what they have to say about what they feel about church and how they can, you know, better be used and engaged. And what ends up happening is I’ve had so many pastors over the years tell me I wasn’t trained in seminary on how to run a church. I was trained on preaching. And I’m scared to death that my business leaders are going to discover that I’m incompetent on the business side. And so there’s this fear that keeps them and they kind of wall off a lot of their key business leaders. But at the same time, the business leaders will own up to the fact that they’re intimidated by their pastor because that pastor has spiritual depth that they don’t. And so you’ve got two people that are kind of standing off from each other out of these misconceptions. But I think if they came together and they helped each other run the church the way that God would design it to be run, then they would be using each other’s God-given strengths to have a much stronger church and a much stronger business community.SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah. And it’s really going to take the kinds of people that that listen to your show and that listen to this show that do have the business depth and the spiritual depth to be, you know, I think of the role as uh Seth Godin wrote a book many years ago, not one of his most popular ones was called the Lynch Pin. And and that’s always just resonated with me. I mean, the the linchpin is just, you know, it’s what you stick in the end of the the wheel on your wheelbarrow to keep it from falling off, you know, as an example. And and I think that’s what those of us that are that that do have that spiritual depth, we we have a heart for ministry, uh, we know the word, but we also understand business and we understand the the integration of of the two. It’s I think Holy Spirit is wanting to tap into those kinds of people uh that are listening to this show to be the linchpin, to the the the integrators, you know, to to help pastors get it and help business people get it, you know, help pastors understand, hey, God cares about business. And you know, because I I asked this question uh pretty much the last, I don’t know, 100 episodes. When did you first realize God wants to be involved in your work in business? Um that that’s kind of a foregone conclusion that you did realize that if you’re a guest on this show, but most people they’ve never realized that, right? Um and and so that’s we’re called to to help them realize that.SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yes, absolutely.SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah, so um how can people hear more from you? People can go to the website, which is unconventional business.org. They can get access. Is the the course is it available there?SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah, so we’ve got a lot of uh resources on our website at unconventional business.org. I mean, they can actually join as a free associate member, and that’ll get them, you know, our daily devotional. We have a really it’s a 60-second devotional that we’ve been doing for 20 years, and it’s even a radio program, so they can listen to it as a podcast or read it each day, and people love it because it’s so brief, but it every day it tells a practical workplace story with a biblical principle uh woven in. And then there’s a lot of uh content that we have uh available there as well that they can plug into. And then we have our forum groups that are different groups meeting around the country and actually around the globe, uh, you know, that they can plug into as well. And so there’s yeah, just a lot of great resources that may help them. And we’re just here to support them and to provide a community that they can gather with and realize that uh they’re not in this journey alone.SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah, love it. Well, it sounds like the call to action is to go start a group at your church, you know. And if you’re not sure what what content to use, go to unconventional business.org and and see what they have to offer. And so when your church launches small groups in the fall, make sure that there is a marketplace group. Um, you know, we’re we’re having um I’m I’m facilitating an event for marketplace Christians at my church in about two weeks. We’re gonna have it catered by the best barbecue restaurant in town, and we’re gonna talk about faith and business. And there, and there’s no reason why uh those listening can’t do that in their own at their own local church. Sure. Um, and and Rick, you’re doing this at scale now and with with so many groups that are happening, and thank you for continuing to stay faithful in the faith and work movement and equipping God’s people for uh the work and ministry in the marketplace.SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah, thank you, Darren, for the work you’ve been doing. You’ve been an important role in all this. Thank you, Rick.SPEAKER_02 30:07

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