Is There Any Biblical Basis for ESG and DEI (w/ Don Golden)

On this episode, we’re joined by Don Golden, founder of Just Capital Quotient and Chief Impact Officer at Threefold Private Equity.

Don shares his journey from ministry and humanitarian aid into the business world, focusing on building life-giving economies through Christian principles. Darren asks Don about ESG, DEI, and how business leaders can apply Scripture to modern economic challenges.

Don explains how companies can steward financial, human, social, and natural capital to create intrinsic impact, offering real-world examples of businesses innovating for the good of people and the planet.

https://www.justcapitalquotient.com

Key Takeaways

• Don Golden, founder of Just Capital Quotient, focuses on building life-giving economies by integrating Christian principles into business practices.
• After decades in ministry and humanitarian work, Don shifted to business to directly impact economic systems, recognizing the economy’s power to serve the poor.
• ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) is often politicized, but Don encourages Christians to anchor environmental stewardship in Scripture, not media narratives.
• Don promotes a Multi-Capitals Framework, stewarding financial, human, social, and natural capital to create wealth that honors God and serves communities.
• Intrinsic Impact is central to Don’s model: businesses should create positive change naturally through their operations, not only through external charity.
• Threefold Private Equity exemplifies kingdom business by investing in roofing and painting companies that prioritize sustainability, stewardship, and innovation.
• Companies like White Hat Industrials and Power Resources International demonstrate how creativity and stewardship can produce market success and bless communities.
• Don urges Christian leaders to pursue redemptive horizons, moving industries from exploitation toward ethical, regenerative, and sustainable business models.
• On DEI and Affirmative Action, Don stresses that Christians must be agents of reconciliation and equity, despite the political weaponization of these topics.
• Small and medium businesses have unique freedom to build kingdom-centered companies without the heavy-handedness of politicized corporate mandates.
• Don envisions a new economy led by Christian innovators—one that reflects God’s creativity, justice, stewardship, and abundant care for both people and planet.

Christian Business Leader is the show for marketplace Christians seeking to explore and apply God’s will for business. If you want to learn more about how to do business for the glory of God and shape culture through discipling the business world, this show is for you.

Full Episode Transcript

Heads up: This transcript was created with AI, so you might notice a few typos or small mistakes. We recommend listening to the episode for the best experience!  

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome to the Christian Business Leader Podcast, where Christ-following business leaders explore God’s will and ways for business. This show is the ministry of the Center for Christianity and Business at Houston Christian University and features conversations with today’s Christ-centered business leaders who are representing Christ faithfully in the business world. I’m your host, Darren Scheer, and if you want to make your work, leadership, and company’s culture more Christ-centered, you’ve come to the right place. On this episode, we’re joined by Don Golden. Don is the founder of Just Capital Quotient, which is dedicated to building life-giving economies worldwide by integrating integral business practices with Christian principles. He has over 30 years of experience in humanitarian context and is chief impact officer at Threefold Private Equity. And we’re going to be talking some about ESGs today. But Don is going to share his perspective on this and we’ll see what the scripture has to say about some of the underlying purpose behind this movement. So we’ll see, uh we’ll see where this conversation goes. I’m excited to learn today. Don, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast.SPEAKER_01 1:41

Great to be with you. Thanks for having me, Darren.SPEAKER_00 1:44

Don, when did you first realize God wants to be involved in your work in business?SPEAKER_01 1:48

Oh, thank you. That’s a good question. I think it’s the other way around. I I began to realize about six years ago I wanted to get involved in God’s work in the economy. I’d spent my life in ministry and in missions and then in humanitarian aid. And in the course of that work, I began to see the power of the economy in people’s lives. You know, the gospel is a gospel to the poor. If it’s not good news to the poor, it might not be good news. And uh so the idea that uh there’s something happening in the economic arena. About six or seven years ago, I wanted to make that switch, and the Lord opened up a door for me to be able to do that.SPEAKER_00 2:29

Because you were pastoring before, right?SPEAKER_01 2:31

And then you made the I’ve I’ve I’ve kind of worked in the whole range of um professional evangelical Christianity from the missionary world. I spent 10 years in Europe as a missionary. Uh then I came back to the US and joined World Relief and served for uh 12 years with World Relief and World Vision, uh, building partnerships between U.S. churches and crisis contexts around the world. I uh traveled in over 80 countries doing this uh this kind of aid and development work alongside churches. Uh and then I also spent uh three years pastoring and now also um continue to serve in a part-time capacity uh at a church in Baltimore, uh Douglas Memorial Community Church.SPEAKER_00 3:19

Okay. And your company, Just Capital Quotient, helps companies. As I was reading on the website, you help companies uncover specific ESG needs. So for our listeners who might not be familiar, what is ESG and um what are the types of ESG needs you and your company uh seek to uncover?SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, let’s, you know, um websites don’t always uh stay stay in touch with uh the the language that we’re using currently. And so I I there’s there’s a recent documentary by the Financial Times in London called The Death of ESG. It’s a fascinating, you Google it, check it out, very interesting. ESG has been a is a highly politicized uh term, and at best, it’s a program that corporations implement to address their uh use of natural capital. But from the theological, from the impact, and actually from the standpoint of what matters most, uh, the issue of using what God has given us well for the well-being of humanity, for people and for this garden that God has given us to live in. Um my interests along the line of ESG really uh reside there. Now, for companies, and many of the companies I consult for working in the built environment, there’s a lot happening, uh a lot of change happening, for example, in the in the arena of waste. I don’t know how you are, but you know, I I just went to Chipotle today, and I come out with a massive collection of paper and plastic and waste, and we create so much waste. So, company, one way that companies are innovating and winning in the market is learning to deal with the problem of waste. Um, so actually, uh I think the convergence between a better, more regenerative use of natural resources and innovation in the market, there’s a really interesting overlap there. And um, one thing that I hope business leaders do, Christian business leaders, is to find their position around the use of natural resources, not allow CNN to define it for you or Fox News to define it for you. But what’s scripture say about our role as stewards of the planet? And what do you see as uh your business’s opportunity to innovate in positive ways uh in that arena? So that’s just a little bit uh uh about um in vi the environment and and ESG.SPEAKER_00 5:56

Got it. And so, but ESG stands for environmental, social and uh social and governance.SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.SPEAKER_00 6:05

Right. And so the social piece and the governance piece, how how do you explain that?SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, well, so social, you know, one one of the things that we uh undergirds the the approach to operationalizing a business that is more positively impactful, that is a good expression of our stewardship as uh kingdom leaders, is what we call a multi-capitals framework. And and Rat really just asks, well, what are all the things that we put into a business to create wealth? Well, we know we put financial capital, uh, but there’s also human capital and there’s social capital and there’s natural capital. And so what we uh do is look at that multi-capitals framework and we ask ourselves, how can we become more creative, more positively impactful, and when in the market through better um solutions to profitable problem solving solving? How can we solve problems that people have in a profitable way that is uh stewarding those multi-capitals in uh a positive way? And so when you think of social capital, you’re really talking about the communities in which we work and the communities of people that make up our labor force, for example, or our customers uh, for example. And so how we trade in that social capital, does our business create trust in communities? Do people trust us? Do they trust our solutions, our services, our products? So that’s honoring that social capital, trying to be an agent of reconciliation, you know, one of this idea in theology that’s so powerful of shalom, you know, one of the issues of fallen human, sinful humanity is our separation from ourself, from the other, from the environment, ultimately because of our separation from God. And so the reconciliation, as Paul says in Colossians 1:20, the reconciliation in Christ of all things. We want to make sure our businesses are not profiting off of causing problems in communities, but actually building trust and solving problems for communities. So that’s a that in the ESG, even though I don’t talk now a lot about ESG and should address my website. Um, but we do want in the S side, the governance side really is about ownership, for example, um, making sure that profits that are created are properly distributed. I don’t mean redistributed necessarily. Whatever program you use, the main problem that we have today in the economy is that too much of the money that’s made is going to the top of the tree house. You know, I don’t know if you ever saw that uh uh there’s there’s a kid’s cartoon uh about uh going to the stuff mart and buying a lot of stuff. This was veggie tails, and then you should show it to my kids, and they you know bringing all the stuff home to the tree house, and eventually your tree house is going to tip over because you’ve got too much stuff from the stuff mart. Well, a lot of our businesses that it’s not about making money, make money, but make sure that the the business is governed and structured in a way that that wealth can be distributed through to other people so that more people get jobs, that more people get a positive prospect on the future for their lives. So governance has to do with how is the business managed uh in a way that is just uh for others.SPEAKER_00 9:40

And so typically in the conversations I have, when we start to talk about who what companies are getting it right from a biblical perspective, the the ones that come top of mind for a lot of people would be like Hobby Lobby, Chick-fil-A. Um C12 is an incredible organization with a very large network of companies whose leaders are really trying to get it right uh biblically. Who would be an example of a company that you believe is getting it right from a biblical standpoint?SPEAKER_01 10:15

Yeah, well, uh I mean I I have to the the you mentioned some some excellent examples there, the the bit I know about uh those companies, certainly Hobby Lobby and uh Chick-fil-A, that I I know a lot about. But um my focus has been small and medium enterprises. And uh, you know, the companies say between 10 and 100 million, um uh that that size of companies, a lot of freedom that um business owners in that arena have. Um, corporations, obviously, it’s harder at times to turn the ship and to make choices. But um, so I’d happily speak about the company where I serve as chief impact officer. It’s a bit self-serving that my business had taken on taken on this client, and they’ve taken me on as their onto their executive team as chief impact officer. And so I get to work out these principles with Charlie Meyer and Mark Riggle at an Indianapolis-based private equity holding company called Threefold. And under their leadership, they’ve made a very strong commitment. They hired me to say, uh, you know, we’re we’re on our way to uh to making a lot of money. And we want to make sure that as we make that money, we do it in a way that it has kingdom impact. So they gave me the task of what does kingdom impact mean? And for four more than four years now, we’ve been working that out. And that’s where this idea of a multi-capitals approach uh came from. I can just give a quick shout out to Jay Jacob, uh, a book called Um The Economics of Mutuality.SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, I interviewed him on his show.SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh, okay. Well, then you know Jay. So that model, he his he’s committed to this uh multicapitals approach. But what what I let me step back and do a little theology, if I may, where we where we got this idea. You know, the first story that is told after the fall of humanity is the story of Cain and Abel. And if you look at that story, it’s actually at the heart, it’s an economic story because you have the separation of humans from God, and then you have two brothers in the field, one is a farmer, one is one as a shepherd. They both need the same field for productive purposes. And so that separation from God brings the myth of scarcity. There’s not enough to go around, and the myth of scarcity leads to the myth of redemptive violence. I have to kill you to protect what is mine. And those two myths that to me is the Bible saying all of history is going to be framed by this economic crisis that there’s not enough to go around, and as a result, people kill one another. So I’m gonna build a reconciling people who will operate from abundance. And so if you could imagine, instead of Cain killing Abel, you could, if you could imagine him sitting down and beginning to work out, hey, we both need this, we both need this field. You know, we we we both uh we both have needs. And then the multi-capital framework just sort of breaks down what are the needs that we have in our businesses? So you have financial capital, you have human capital, you have social capital, and you have natural capital. These are all the gifts that God has given us to use in the wealth-creating process. And what we can do with when we’re animated by the Spirit of God and we’re coming from a place, a place of abundance, is the creative, innovative stewardship of those capitals for the well-being of others. How can we use this business and all that it does to bring good into the world? We call this intrinsic impact. Intrinsic impact means that the good that we want for the world is done through the business and as a natural outcome of business operations. In other words, the the history of doing good in business has often been we’ll make money, we’ll take the largest, the extra that we create, and we’ll go do good through charity. But intrinsic impact says, okay, charity’s good, we have to be charitable, but what we really need to do is make sure that our businesses are having a positive impact on people and on our environment through the very natural processes of the business. And so Threefold Private Equity and the painting companies, the coating companies, the roofing company that they own, they have begun to not only take on these learnings, but begin to see how they can start to give us competitive advantage in the marketplace. So people choose us actually because of the good that we’re bringing into the world, both for people, for the environment, for the products and services that we’re bringing. So there’s a number of businesses that are part of this. Uh, Renovia, a wonderful painting company in Indianapolis, um, White Hat, uh Industrial, it’s a roofing company, and they’ve created a way uh to coat roofing, to do roofing in a way that is incredibly positive for the environment. You know, the number two item in landfills in America are roof tear-offs. So you take a roof, you put it on, maybe then you put another uh roof on top of that, maybe it lasts 40 years. You take that big rubber roof off of an industrial building, you put it in the ground, it takes 400,000 years for it to biodegrade. But with this, uh, but Whitehad is using a uh a spray uh polyurethane roofing solution that you use that old roof as a substrate, you turn the roof white, it cools the roof, it reduces waste to landfill. It’s a tremendous uh alternative. It’s really a revolution roofing, and it costs less than a quarter of tearing the roof off and putting another one on. So that’s an example where a business is doing good for people, doing good for the planet, doing good in the name of Christ, and innovating and winning in the market.SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, I love that example. Uh, what are some of those other specific, kind of non-obvious examples that are um that you could highlight from some of the other uh I guess these are portfolio companies of Yeah, let me give you another one.SPEAKER_01 16:36

We in my business of just capital quotient, uh, I we also have an investment arm. So we’re trying to put money into starting uh awesome new businesses that are engaged in what Jay Jacob and EOM calls uh profitable problem solving. And uh one one is in uh Rwanda, a place that I know well. I’ve spent many of my years with World Relief uh traveling in that part of the world. And um a man named Ray Power has a business called Power Resources International, and they are um mining rare earth minerals in Rwanda. And the history of mining rare earth minerals in Africa is a pretty gruesome story of injustice. You know, going to Eastern Congo, extracting um conflict, what they call conflict minerals, taking that wealth, uh, and then taking it to China and America where you actually add the value to it and where people get wealthy. Um, in Rwanda, uh Power Resources International is mining tantalum, which is by the way the rarest uh rare earth mineral, not only on earth, but in the entire solar system. And it’s super highly sought uh for fail, what they call fail-free circuitry. So everybody in the world wants this, but it’s found in Africa, this particular Great Lakes portion of Africa. So the great scramble, how do we get it out and take it from those Africans and bring it to China or America? But Ray Power has said, okay, I’m gonna do this mining, but I’m gonna build a refinery. And so that means all of the technical expertise, all of the training, all of the education, all of the value add shifts from China and the US into Africa itself. And so that is just one of the amazing examples where a Christ-motivated founder sees an opportunity. You can make a lot more money just by extracting it and doing it the way that everybody else has done. But instead, he’s put all his energy into bringing, and it is not easy. This is some of the some of the most challenging engineering that you can do. He’s put bringing that to Africa, and they’re they’re up and producing and selling um refined tantalum powder, um, but the benefits are pouring in in many, so many different ways to Rwanda because of what Ray has done. So that’s another example.SPEAKER_00 19:08

How do they stay competitive with the companies that try to do it the cheap and easy way?SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, well, that’s the you know, that’s the the the risk. And I would say that when you when you look at kingdom businesses, risk is one of the things that we begin to recognize as something that we we need to be taking. Uh, I think taking risks that we know are innovative and beneficial uh to the human family, that are good representatives of what God wants us to be and do in the world, are the kind of risks we ought to be taking. And what you often find is that um taking those calculated competitive risks often helps you find even cheaper ways to do things. So um that’s you know what what what Ray is doing to access this tantalum and putting all the effort in up front, the back inside’s gonna actually make it cheaper for him to bring tantalum to the market. Yeah. Once he once he overcomes all those barriers that he’s had to go through to get all of that technical capacity uh into Rwanda.SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah. Well, sometimes the more environmental or what seems to be the more environmentally friendly option uh it is more profitable, such as the examples that you you shared um with the roof uh substrate and everything. But with, for example, let’s um let’s completely eliminate fossil fuels and shift to everything is now battery powered. Um what is your take on on that philosophy?SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yeah, yeah. You know, I I I don’t like to we have a world that we have to move forward with. And what we want to do is to move redemptively. That’s another another principle that we talked about. Redemptive movement, redemption in general, just the idea of taking on risks, giving yourself away for the benefit of others. But if you think about a redemptive horizon, you might look at an industry and say, right now, this industry is causing harm, but we need fuel, you know. So it’s causing harm. And I don’t think it’s wise for Christians to deny uh science and to deny facts, uh, but to actually honor God by saying, hey, you know, we are it took it took a long time for these fossil fuels to be created, and we’re burning a lot of them up and putting all that carbon back in the environment. And all I know is in my 57 years, I don’t think we have stewarded this garden very well. You know, the there I always ask all my clients, you know, when you take a vacation, where do you like to go? And they always talk about mountains and lakes. And rivers, and you know, and so are those things better now than they were 50 years ago or not? And so the question is just really how do we in our industry trust that if this is something we have to do, then the God of creation, the God of infinite creativity, will give us ways to do it in more life-giving ways. So, you know, the transition to alternative um energy sources, absolutely. Let’s let’s go after them all, but let’s do it from a spirit of abundance, creativity, joy, and uh and win in the market because we’re kind of out loving the world. And you know, we’re we’re being honest about what we see and not denying, we’re not trying to fight the culture wars, and um, that’s not help. That’s not reconciling, that’s not being um you know the city set on a hill, which people go to to find, oh, you’re the ones that can help us settle our conflicts. Christians are often right in the middle, you know, slinging elbows, um causing conflict, and we don’t want to be that. That’s not the way of Christ in the world. Um, so I think a redemptive horizon is to say, first of all, is what we’re doing exploiting people or planet right now? And in some cases, it just is. You know, that actually one of the things that I help clients do is to get really honest, to say, where what are the dirty little secrets and the animal spirits unleashed in your industry? And rather than not, you know, we don’t want to talk about no, look at them. You know, look at that, like the roofing thing. 40 years with one roof that you put in the ground that takes 400,000 to degrade, and it’s the number two item in American landfill, some states refuse to have roofing waste. You have to ship it to another state and pay the that state to put it into the ground. That can’t be that can’t be a good thing. But by looking head on at that, oh wow, there’s a different solution. There’s creativity, there’s innovation, there’s opportunity to win in the market. So I think so. Are we being exploited? Well, how can we move to an ethical approach? And then from the ethical, how might we move to a more regenerative, you know, to give back more to people and planet than we take? Find ways that start giving back. And actually, that’s to me the exciting thing that’s happening. One of the reasons I don’t like to engage the culture wars is I like to find the people that are creating real solutions where you just sort of see the light and beauty of the divine, God’s love, coming into the world and to new solutions. Um, so I think that redemptive frame, that movement from is it exploitation? Uh okay, then what can we do to move it more towards an ethical footing? And then what possibilities lie in the future for more creative and uh regenerative or sustainable ways that uh can last and um provide better solutions, more life-giving solutions.SPEAKER_00 24:51

Yes, the earth is the Lord’s and all it contains. We we do need to do a much, much better job of stewarding our planet so we’ve talked uh mostly about the E of the ESG. So the S, the social, uh, as I understand it, DEI, another fun acronym, um, is part kind of uh a subset of that S. Uh but if correct me if I’m wrong, but it stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion.SPEAKER_01 25:28

Inclusion.SPEAKER_00 25:29

Um why do you think companies like Walmart, Lowe’s, Tractor Supply are now, I mean, there was this really aggressive um DEI movement, uh, but they’re now sort of so a lot of these companies are starting to backpedal uh from that.SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever an institution gets hold of anything, it usually gets reduced to its, I don’t know, it’s maybe its worst common denominator. So those are both just two terms I don’t use a whole lot anymore. But let’s just look think about diversity. Uh equity, I mean, equity as God’s people. Read Second Corinthians chapter seven. You know, what Paul lays out when he takes, he takes a snapshot of all the churches in the Mediterranean, basically all the churches of the world, and he says, I don’t want you to suffer so that they can thrive. I just want there to be equity. I’ve spent my whole life working with churches around the world in 80 countries. I can tell you, if Paul were to see the inequity that exists even in one city between our churches, he would be appalled. He would take our church leaders to task because there’s no equity. We’ve learned. I was just in South Africa. One day I’m in Kailiche, one of the poorest, largest slums, human settlements on the planet. Two days later, I’m in an exclusive golf community with only white people being served by only black people. And I just thought, you know, is this 1950 or is this 2024, a few weeks ago? Uh, so I don’t know that we need DEI because it’s a highly politicized, programmatic political tool that’s bannered about and, you know, and not necessarily helpful. But do we need equity? Oh, do we need diversity? You know, do we need to hear voices that are coming from the margins into our lives and into our power centers? Absolutely. You know, there’s studies about the resilience that are built into communities when they’re not all the same, but when they have that kind of uh and then, you know, and an inclusiveness. I I think what one of the facts, and this is relate relates to equity as well, that the income inequality right now is not good and it is not healthy. The the percentage of every new dollar made and how much of it goes to those who already have many, many dollars. And a study of history will tell you that every empire that has fallen, um wealth inequality has been part of what is torn apart the fabric. And it’s not, it’s not in keeping with the spirit of Jesus, you know, and I think that’s why Paul’s so passionate about that there would be equity. You know, he’s he shames the church of Corinth to look at the church of Macedonia, to look how they gave out of their need, so he could make take up this collection for the poor churches in Jerusalem so that so that the world would look at the church and say, there’s inequity in the world, but look at the church. But I don’t think the church has just done enough to fight that issue. And instead, we’ve been hijacked by political voices who have used us um for reasons that have not been in our kingdom interests. So I almost start preaching there. Did I start to get a little preacher tone going?SPEAKER_00 29:03

So one of the main ways that I’ve seen DEI really uh advanced in the marketplace is through something like um like affirmative action, where we’re going to give hiring preference to uh a particular group because of their skin color, because of their sexual orientation, like the corporate equality index is trying to promote. And I as I try to think about uh what would be a biblical case for this that could potentially be made for something like affirmative action. It’s it’s hard for me to see that. I mean, I see, for example, the the principle of the gleanings. So for any listeners that might not be familiar, this was written into uh the the Mosaic law that you were to leave the corners of your fields for uh the the poor and the foreigners to come and and glean. I mean, they would do the they would have to do the work, they would have to do the harvesting. And you know, famously this is how Ruth meets um meets Boaz and is part of uh the lineage of Jesus. But in terms of we’re going to give hiring preference to this particular group because um, you know, historically they are or or that they’re currently a minority, or historically they’ve been mistreated in some way. Like what what is the is there a biblical case to be made?SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, you know what, you’re you’re uh you’re you’re pulling out these uh these very challenging uh issues, and I appreciate that. The context that I would come at answering this question, I serve uh as a minister at the historic Douglas uh Memorial Community Church in West Baltimore, which is a uh an African-American church. Uh goes goes, we actually celebrate our hundredth anniversary this year. Thurgood Marshall was uh in when Brown versus Board of Education, when that legislation passed, our church was uh a centerpiece for that uh uh case to be made in uh in the city of Baltimore. So we have a long history. Our previous pastor is uh Raphael Warnock before he went to Ebenezer. He was our pastor at uh Douglas. And I can only say that I I tell people that I became a white man when I when I joined Douglas Memorial Church. You know, I didn’t really understand my white, what what it meant to be white uh until I had gained some proximity towards a community that um doesn’t share my skin color. And so all I can say is that affirmative action has been an important way for many of, I’ll give you an example. One of the uh women in my weekly uh care call that I uh lead every week, when she in 1953, she was a part of one of the first cohorts to go to Boston College in affirmative action. And one of the men in her uh cohort was a man named Martin Luther King Jr. And my his sister Eloise in my weekly meeting went to school with uh to Boston University with uh Martin Luther King Jr. and became, you know, she’s the first PhD in uh social uh work in the state of Maryland. Um, and so all I know, all I can say is that many who have benefited um from uh affirmative action uh have become incredible leaders and assets to their community. And I think it’s once again, you know, we God’s people, we know how to do these things well in the spirit of life and community. I don’t think uh any the Democrats or the Republicans, anytime this sort of good intention thing becomes a policy, it ends up distorting into its worst common denominator, its worst form. So people who don’t like it, I understand, um, but I also know how important it remains, as do the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of 64 and 65. These are still important pillars to the freedoms that African Americans have achieved. I would like to see us as God’s people be less partisan and more principled policy. In other words, how do we come together and argue and demand right policies, just policies, and not become the tools of political parties who often are just using us to get power and to take it in directions that are not that healthy helpful. I don’t know if that was a very good uh discussion or a good answer, but that’s my my connection to your question.SPEAKER_00 34:15

Right. Yeah, well, I’m I’m really curious about how you make a biblical case for something like uh affirmative action. You know, again, I I I can see the the principle of the of the gleanings. I mean, there’s there’s always gonna be uh examples and exceptions that we can use to kind of justify a particular policy, but you know, on this show, we’re trying to look at what would be a scriptural basis for. And typically, you know, when this topic comes up, we’re gonna go to like the parable of the talents and and you know, sort of evidence of some, you know, merit-based principles that we can kind of hang our hat on to understand how we do hiring and how we do promotions at work and and so like what what do you look to scripturally?SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah, at the at the core of our mandate as God’s people, it is the reconciliation, the redemption of all of all things, to put back together what has uh what is what is broken, what what is uh uh what is not working, what is separated, what what is separated from God, separated from um one another in creation. And in that spirit of um seeking to be agents of healing in the world, our primary guide is the way of the cross. And the way of the cross, that is self-giving love, that is altruism. And so I have I can absolutely see one group saying, you know, not only did we have some great opportunities, um, you know, Native American communities having, you know, suffered a genocide at the hands of our ancestors and uh black Americans having had their labor stolen. There’s so much unaddressed history that I think some of us, especially those of us who can, who are willing to make a sacrifice for others, there’s an argument to be to be made there about um giving yourself and your opportunities away for the benefit of others, especially those who have been denied the kinds of opportunities that you’ve been given. When you turn that over into a policy and you hand that policy to the state, will it operate from that altruistic principle? Very unlikely. So that’s our dilemma. And one of the reasons that I love personally working with small and medium businesses is that the power that a, you know, a business leader owns to be able to bring justice, to make decisions, to take a chance on someone, not giving up commitments to excellence, but to be able to give people opportunities and to find ways to find hidden value in people. That’s a tri there’s tremendous power that small and medium businesses uh have to operate under those redemptive principles um that uh I don’t think our our governments could really be expected um to operate in altruistic ways. Yeah.SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, and it’s uh it’s a dilemma too, because it’s it’s not so much the lawmakers’ altruism that is on display as it is they’re they’re they’re uh taking away one because to give to take one job and give it to somebody, you’re taking it away from somebody else, inevitably. Right. And in and in this case, uh it would be based on race, color, um, sexual orientation. I’m referring to the corporate equality index, where uh you know these these companies are getting uh scored on a on a scale of one to a hundred. And one of those items is do you have hiring uh initiatives specifically targeted uh toward LGBTQ? Um and so that that’s it it’s not just a matter of your laying down your life, you’re laying down your job, your opportunity for somebody else, as it is a lawmaker saying we’re gonna force you to lay down your opportunity and we’re gonna take that and give it to somebody else. And it’s it’s just I mean, to me, it’s hard to make a scriptural argument for that, is it not?SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah, you’re you’re uh this is not an arena in which I operate.SPEAKER_00 39:00

Gotcha, gotcha. So um, and and thank you for your your grace in um you know tolerating some of these these really tough questions that you know I’ve like I said, when if if things like this come up on this show, it’s yeah, no typically, you know, you’re typically going to get the party line. So I’m I’m curious.SPEAKER_01 39:23

What what I’m what I’m interested in as a as a consultant and a coach to kingdom-oriented small and medium business owners is the freedom that they enjoy not to have to submit to those types of impositions, whether that whether that’s viewed as positive or negative. What I think we’re able to go really to the core of the issue and say, how do I bring life to the wealth making process? And we’ve created a framework in which we now don’t have to, we don’t really don’t have to deal with ESG because we are building much more environmentally integrous businesses. We don’t even have to, no one’s scoring us around ESG. We’re just busy thinking about how do you coat a building in a way that’s more life-giving and how do you win in the market because of that. You know, that’s exciting. Oh, and by the way, it’s got good ESG scores, but we don’t even think about that. We’re thinking about, I think, because humans must coat the buildings they live in, then the God who made us this way is going to give us the creativity to do it in a way that doesn’t harm the planet.SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yeah.SPEAKER_01 40:35

And maybe right now what we’re doing is harming the planet. So we don’t have to tear it all down. Let’s get creative, let’s trust God and let’s get in there and get creative. But the same applies to diversity. You know, I’m in too many environments in which it’s not diverse enough. And there’s a sense of, wow, I know that because I’m a minister at a black church, I now don’t trust any room that all looks the same because I just know, oh, I just know you’re not going to hear that perspective here. And I, you know, so I’m always wanting to be that one who’s like, oh, where’s that other voice? And you know, who how do we make sure that we have a good picture of this issue that we’re dealing with? Let’s build a more diverse environment. And when you find them and they’re working well, not imposed. You know, I have a I have a nephew that works in corporate America, and you know, he’d be saying, he’d be vehemently saying, This has been terrible for me, you know, and and I totally watch that and I just feel bad for him. And then I get to work with businesses that have the freedom to handle these things in ways that are good uh for them and yet to be challenged. You know, how do you build diversity and what does it do uh for your business, etc.? I mean, you know, we do one of the issues that we deal with is contract labor, which is 99.9% Hispanic. And, you know, many, many businesses depend on that workforce. And that’s a tricky, that’s a particularly vulnerable community, and probably going to become more vulnerable in the months to come. And, you know, how do we deal with that? And that that’s one that you know is is very um very pressing to many of my clients. And um, so we’re all thrust into these ethical dilemmas that I think there is a way through them. And it’s always nice when we don’t have to deal with uh somebody pushing a policy down our down our throat.SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, yeah. I I have to brag on my 10-year-old son. He asked for a uh a smelting furnace for Christmas, and so we got it for him, and he has been he’s to do smelting, you’re gonna need some metal, right? And so he’s been we have a creek in our backyard, he’s been going up and down that creek and has found dozens and dozens of of uh littered aluminum cans that have ended up in the creek, has totally cleaned up the creek of aluminum cans, at least. Amazing, and has now been using those for his smelting project. But you know, it’s it wasn’t necessarily, you know, let me figure out how to go and clean up the environment. It was I have a I have an interest in so you know that maybe we’ve got to figure out more more creative ways to incentivize that that word that word creative, you know.SPEAKER_01 43:31

Think about that again, that Genesis one to three and then Genesis four. Creator creates creation, and we are part of that creation, and we are his image bearers. And so that creator creates creation that continues to create. It’s a very Jewish concept that humans join God in the unfolding work of creation, you know. So we’re continuing to create the world. We Romans frames it the new atom for the new creation. And what I like to put into between is how did the new Adam get to the new creation? It’s through a new economy. You know, it’s very interesting that Acts seven, Acts chapter seven, the very first martyr of the church, he’s martyred after he quotes Isaiah 61. And that verse is, heaven is my throne, the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build me? And that question angers the religious leaders so much that they murder Stephen. Why is that? I did a lot of study on that verse. What kind of house will you build me? Well, in Greek, that word house is oikos, where we get the word economy. If you were to hear that question in in Greek, it would say, What kind of economy will you build me? Well, when you start talking about economy, people start to get threatened. And so these leaders, we don’t want a new economy. So I think a new atom, those who come to Christ, working for a new creation, Romans chapter 8, all of creation is groaning in eager expectation for these new atoms to be revealed, the sons and daughters of God. But this new economy, this new house, uh building an economy that is just, that is inclusive, that is regenerative, whether you, whether we like those terms or not, who cares? But that is our responsibility to build an economy that brings more, where the where the poor can say, wow, I have a place, I have a future, where the earth that’s crying out can say, Wow, these stewards of the planet really know how to use these resources well, like your like your son is learning to do. Like, I love this place, I’m out here, I’m getting this metal, I’m doing this thing. Look, the the creek is better, you know. That’s a that’s a beautiful thing. So, all of that to say that that creativity, a good term in business is innovation. You know, what what does the market need that’s not there? And and one of the interesting things is that there is, while ESG gets battered around, and that video, that documentary I told you about who killed ESG, the punchline of that documentary is ESG is dead, but the pressures on the planet for better stewarding, treating the resources we have better isn’t going away. It can’t go away. There’s too many problems. There’s too many of us. We have to learn to steward the planet, and creativity is the way that I think we can build innovative businesses.SPEAKER_00 46:29

Well, well said, Don, I really appreciate your heart for the Lord, for people, for God’s creation, and and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today on some really difficult, controversial topics. I’ve found it really. It’s always a joy. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Christian Business Leader Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and tune in for the next episode as we continue exploring God’s will and ways for business.

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